WEBVTT 00:00:12.060 --> 00:00:15.640 Welcome to the Bikeshed Podcast, where we talk about all things software engineering, 00:00:16.260 --> 00:00:19.680 the AI stock market bubble, and my new Breville Espresso machine. 00:00:20.680 --> 00:00:24.160 I'm your co-host, the acquirer of keyboards, Scott Kay. 00:00:24.740 --> 00:00:30.280 And alongside with me are my co-hosts, The Machine, The Myth, The Legend, MattGPT. 00:00:31.040 --> 00:00:33.840 Now, with 10% more sass, Matt Hamlin. 00:00:34.690 --> 00:00:39.140 And my other co-host, with Take So Spicy, The Language Gets a Little Dicey. 00:00:39.860 --> 00:00:42.000 Dillon, Spicy Take, Curry. 00:00:43.080 --> 00:00:45.160 Fellas, what are we cooking up today? 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:48.140 Another great intro, Scott. 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:51.240 Today, we're going to cover a few things. 00:00:51.460 --> 00:00:55.160 but our main segment, we want to focus in on this sort of Remix 3 demo 00:00:55.620 --> 00:00:58.700 that maybe some of us have seen all the way through. 00:00:59.080 --> 00:01:00.420 Maybe some of us haven't. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:05.400 I would say to the listener, if you're interested in Remix or React, 00:01:05.620 --> 00:01:08.000 like maybe pause the episode, go watch it, and then come back. 00:01:08.580 --> 00:01:09.720 But make sure you actually come back. 00:01:10.060 --> 00:01:10.980 Like, don't leave yet. 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:15.260 But yeah, and then, yeah, I think we want to talk a little bit about that. 00:01:15.360 --> 00:01:18.100 And then we have some sort of side segments we want to dig into. 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:23.100 Scott has some spicy takes on handling different, 00:01:23.350 --> 00:01:24.820 like null or undefined values than UI. 00:01:25.060 --> 00:01:26.700 So that'll be interesting for us to dig into as well. 00:01:28.520 --> 00:01:29.840 Yeah, so on the topic of Remix 3, 00:01:30.070 --> 00:01:33.780 so for people that aren't in the web ecosystem, 00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:37.140 the other week was pretty busy. 00:01:37.830 --> 00:01:41.600 They had, there was like ViteConf announced a lot of stuff, 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:43.620 like VitePlus, things like that. 00:01:43.780 --> 00:01:44.660 We're not talking about that today. 00:01:44.770 --> 00:01:46.520 That would be interesting to talk about maybe next episode. 00:01:47.240 --> 00:01:53.780 There was a React Conf, which sort of snuck in there also somehow that most people didn't actually tune into, I think. 00:01:55.600 --> 00:01:57.280 And then there was also a remix. 00:01:58.260 --> 00:01:59.220 This is my first time. 00:01:59.670 --> 00:02:00.840 I didn't even know there was a React Conf. 00:02:02.420 --> 00:02:03.460 It is crazy. 00:02:03.510 --> 00:02:04.620 I think it passed. 00:02:04.740 --> 00:02:08.360 No, in past years, it was like, I feel like it was more topical. 00:02:09.030 --> 00:02:09.440 But I don't know. 00:02:09.470 --> 00:02:13.040 Yeah, this year, just like, just like right over me. 00:02:13.300 --> 00:02:14.000 You know, I don't know. 00:02:14.090 --> 00:02:16.040 I think it caught a lot of us by surprise, maybe. 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:19.400 but yeah the third conference that happened 00:02:19.630 --> 00:02:21.520 I think last week was Remix Jam 00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:23.640 which was this I guess 00:02:23.820 --> 00:02:25.580 event in Toronto at the Shopify 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:26.480 offices I think 00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:29.200 where Ryan Florence 00:02:29.640 --> 00:02:30.740 and Michael Jackson 00:02:31.330 --> 00:02:33.480 the Remix guys as we've referred 00:02:33.480 --> 00:02:34.940 to them in the past on this podcast 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:37.200 showcased 00:02:37.250 --> 00:02:38.880 I think there were some other Remix related 00:02:39.470 --> 00:02:41.300 talks but the main 00:02:41.700 --> 00:02:43.400 sort of center stage was all about this Remix 00:02:43.470 --> 00:02:45.119 3 stuff that they've been cooking 00:02:45.140 --> 00:02:48.940 for the past couple months, maybe a year or so. 00:02:50.660 --> 00:02:51.800 I remember him saying, like, 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:53.700 we've been working super hard for three months. 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:56.060 It's weird to see people again. 00:02:56.550 --> 00:02:56.760 I don't know. 00:02:56.880 --> 00:02:57.480 That's what he was acting like. 00:03:01.420 --> 00:03:04.240 Yeah, I think it's been interesting sort of following them. 00:03:04.690 --> 00:03:07.620 So, yeah, I mean, a couple episodes ago, 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:08.440 we might have to dig it up, 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:09.860 but we talked a little bit about, 00:03:10.230 --> 00:03:13.360 or I think I primarily slandered these guys saying, 00:03:13.510 --> 00:03:14.120 like, what are they doing? 00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:14.900 They're wasting their time. 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:19.360 and they're talking about going back to old web development stuff 00:03:19.660 --> 00:03:21.960 and throwing out React and things like that. 00:03:22.100 --> 00:03:23.440 And I think I was giving them a hard time. 00:03:24.100 --> 00:03:27.160 I think after watching the demo, I think I've changed my mind. 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:32.600 And I think maybe React has an end in sight, potentially, 00:03:33.270 --> 00:03:35.620 which is maybe a hot take, and maybe we talked a little bit about that. 00:03:37.060 --> 00:03:39.240 But also, I guess just to set the stage, 00:03:39.490 --> 00:03:44.240 Ryan Florence is probably the best demo giver in web development. 00:03:44.940 --> 00:03:49.200 Like, I can't think of anyone else that can get up on stage and showcase some code 00:03:49.820 --> 00:03:54.180 and just have you completely enthralled in, like, what is happening. 00:03:55.180 --> 00:03:56.940 So maybe that's why I'm, like, convinced, 00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:02.280 is that the demo was just actually pretty interesting and useful and insightful. 00:04:02.980 --> 00:04:05.460 But, yeah, anyway, I've been monologuing too long. 00:04:05.660 --> 00:04:09.340 What are your guys' initial thoughts on, like, you guys watch the videos 00:04:09.460 --> 00:04:12.360 or watch part of the videos, like, what are your initial thoughts on the demo 00:04:12.660 --> 00:04:14.040 or what was showcased? 00:04:14.380 --> 00:04:16.100 And we can talk about the specifics a little bit after also. 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:24.220 I don't think the demo was like super well done in terms of like the presentation. 00:04:26.020 --> 00:04:26.920 Maybe that's a hot take. 00:04:27.440 --> 00:04:33.000 But the actual like work that went into building the demo ahead of time, you could tell there 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:39.620 was a lot of like time spent on that to try to show the different concepts that were coming 00:04:39.760 --> 00:04:40.460 to Remix V3. 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:48.240 I think he sort of like got to random parts in the presentation through chatting with Michael on the side. 00:04:48.250 --> 00:04:55.840 It was almost like he was the host and Ryan Florence is like sort of just going through the demo at a random pace. 00:04:57.420 --> 00:04:57.680 But yeah. 00:04:58.710 --> 00:04:59.380 What about you, Scott? 00:04:59.580 --> 00:05:00.580 How did you feel about it? 00:05:02.460 --> 00:05:05.740 Yeah, these guys really know how to get me excited about Remix. 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:09.440 I don't want to be let down. 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:12.160 I think we talked about it. 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.100 Matt brought this up a couple of episodes ago. 00:05:16.200 --> 00:05:16.500 I don't know. 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:17.360 It was like half a year ago. 00:05:17.460 --> 00:05:19.060 I really wanted to dig into Remix. 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:20.100 And we talked about this. 00:05:20.140 --> 00:05:22.640 But then they kind of said, like, Remix is no more. 00:05:22.880 --> 00:05:26.680 And we're just using, like, React router packages. 00:05:26.960 --> 00:05:28.960 I do like this approach that they're taking. 00:05:30.300 --> 00:05:35.000 In the demo, they showed everything from many, just their own packages. 00:05:35.580 --> 00:05:36.520 Each thing was its own package. 00:05:36.640 --> 00:05:40.560 But the goal was that it would come all out of one main package when they were using, 00:05:40.700 --> 00:05:46.100 in full they just wanted to showcase some of the pieces individually um i thought that was really 00:05:46.260 --> 00:05:51.300 effective i actually thought it was a great demo like like matt said some of it there was some lulls 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:57.900 but yeah ryan really captures an audience he really he talks a lot about some things that like 00:05:58.300 --> 00:06:04.839 he brought up like what a um was it a click event actually does all the things that happen 00:06:05.460 --> 00:06:12.440 when you do a click event and how it's like very over uh saturated with with like things it does 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:18.060 which was great that kind of knowledge just made the demo more interesting to understand what they 00:06:18.060 --> 00:06:24.720 were building um and i think the there's so many things matt said that had me thinking and i don't 00:06:24.840 --> 00:06:31.260 guess i don't know how i feel yet um i would like to see remix maybe challenge react i know there 00:06:31.220 --> 00:06:38.680 other things out there like svelte um and they're not used too widely yet i i guess i i don't want 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:44.460 to sound pessimistic but i i feel like um because react is is in so many code bases because there's 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:51.020 such a large network of folks who know it already um it's going to be hard to pull it away and i'm 00:06:51.140 --> 00:06:57.679 not saying that react is the best solution um but i am really excited to see something else finally 00:06:57.700 --> 00:07:04.040 come out of this um i really want to use it it's like last year november of last year when i was 00:07:04.340 --> 00:07:09.760 super stoked to like try to learn it um but then now they're like we're going to rebuild the same 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:16.600 thing but forget react we don't need this react um i guess i want to point out in in my long-winded 00:07:16.640 --> 00:07:22.079 monologue as well um one thing that i thought was interesting was you know so many times in react i 00:07:22.100 --> 00:07:30.940 try to separate uh the state from from the return of the jsx like i might have some state in there 00:07:31.260 --> 00:07:36.880 but over time uh as i'm building things is just as of recently like especially you know i have so 00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:43.880 many handlers there i have so much stuff that has to happen whether it's hooks or um just just events 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:51.119 it it becomes unwieldy really easily and and what they were showing in this demo was was exciting 00:07:51.140 --> 00:07:57.260 from that standpoint all right that's enough for me i'm digging a little too deep 00:07:51.140 --> 00:07:57.260 yeah i guess like 00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:02.140 in terms of like structuring this conversation on it i think like one i think we should talk a little 00:08:02.140 --> 00:08:06.440 bit about like what was showcased for people that maybe maybe they have watched it but maybe it would 00:08:06.440 --> 00:08:12.480 be worthwhile refreshing it and then also like maybe two um you know after we talk a little bit 00:08:12.510 --> 00:08:17.839 about that maybe we talk a little bit about like what you know once it is ready for maybe even an 00:08:17.860 --> 00:08:22.460 initial alpha release or a beta release, like what, what do we think that will look like for 00:08:22.900 --> 00:08:27.360 teams, um, you know, teams that maybe choose to migrate to it or like, what, what does this mean 00:08:27.400 --> 00:08:33.440 for react long-term or things like that? Um, uh, yeah. So I guess like maybe, maybe digging into 00:08:33.479 --> 00:08:39.240 it a little bit, I think the way I've at least sort of distilled what remix three is, is it's 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:46.780 effectively two concepts. One is like event handling or like event, um, you know, managing events, 00:08:47.760 --> 00:09:02.960 And when we talk about events, we're talking about like, you know, usually like DOM events or like things like, you know, adding like add event listener and having an event emitter sort of in your web application. 00:09:03.340 --> 00:09:10.020 Right. So, yeah, one of the things they demonstrated was, I think, an API that sounds like it might no longer be the case. 00:09:10.170 --> 00:09:17.780 I think I saw a tweet from Ryan, like, you know, a week after the demo or something saying, like, oh, we're actually, like, removing this create interaction concept. 00:09:18.030 --> 00:09:28.100 And it's just going to be plain old event handlers and, like, your event, like, sort of your interaction becomes this thing that looks like a component, I guess. 00:09:29.820 --> 00:09:34.860 I don't know. Anyway, so one of the core aspects I think they really focused on was like handling 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:40.180 events or using events to manage state. The other aspect was on components, which they kind of like, 00:09:41.540 --> 00:09:45.720 they kind of talk about, but they basically like reduced a lot of maybe the complexity that a lot 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:51.760 of people see when they see functional components in React. You know, like there's, they didn't show 00:09:51.810 --> 00:09:55.560 any hooks, you know, that I think you could replicate something that looks like hooks, 00:09:56.220 --> 00:10:00.640 but it's not using like an internal dispatcher that React uses to manage hook state, for example. 00:10:01.260 --> 00:10:02.400 And so that's kind of interesting. 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:07.120 Maybe we talk a little bit about like concept hooks and like maybe how we've come from, 00:10:07.390 --> 00:10:10.600 what was it, 2018 when they introduced hooks or something? 00:10:12.540 --> 00:10:15.880 But yeah, so events was one core concept and these components. 00:10:15.990 --> 00:10:19.120 And the components are slightly different, but they look kind of similar also to React components 00:10:19.670 --> 00:10:21.100 just without hooks, I guess I'd say. 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:27.740 So that's maybe the light 30-second distillation of what Remix 3 so far looks to be, 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:31.000 is this framework around those two concepts. 00:10:33.920 --> 00:10:36.160 Am I missing anything with that rough summary? 00:10:36.300 --> 00:10:38.360 Or where do we want to dig in there? 00:10:39.520 --> 00:10:43.380 One thing I thought of when you said that is how it's still changing. 00:10:44.060 --> 00:10:46.640 That's kind of something that scares me about this. 00:10:47.260 --> 00:10:48.180 It scares me. 00:10:48.650 --> 00:10:51.400 It deflates my hype in a sense. 00:10:52.080 --> 00:10:53.820 Like, oh, this looks really cool. 00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:55.780 The things that he's doing with this code looks cool. 00:10:56.230 --> 00:10:57.960 But it's not available yet. 00:10:58.130 --> 00:10:59.020 I can't really use it. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:01.460 I don't know if I'm going to be able to use it for six months. 00:11:02.160 --> 00:11:03.900 And then the other thing, maybe we can get into this later, 00:11:04.010 --> 00:11:08.100 is this is vastly different from the way we write code at work. 00:11:10.020 --> 00:11:11.980 If I want to use this at work in my projects, 00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:14.000 is it going to take me a year to migrate to it? 00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:16.260 Or is there going to be an easy way? 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:22.740 that they're going to provide to do this migration. So I would be that maybe that's something I should 00:11:22.860 --> 00:11:28.160 like create an issue for is like, Hey, I really like this, but there's no way, no way in hell 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.720 I'm going to use it unless there's like an automated automated way to migrate my app to this. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.740 Doubling down on your, like your first point Dillon is yes. The, the stuff they showcased 00:11:36.420 --> 00:11:41.959 is like even pre pre alpha or something like they're, they, they are publishing some packages 00:11:41.980 --> 00:11:48.360 under a jam version tag on npm so you could technically try to go and build something with it 00:11:48.370 --> 00:11:55.600 and in fact i've seen some people with repos that like set up like a vite based spa using it and you 00:11:55.600 --> 00:12:02.040 know they're they're a little bit clunky a little bit weird it's like not fully ready yet um so yeah 00:12:02.070 --> 00:12:06.420 i think yeah maybe that's a good uh thing we should sort of put a little asterisk on this episode is 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:11.399 like we're talking about an api that doesn't really exist yet it's just like the concepts of an api 00:12:11.420 --> 00:12:16.760 um maybe that'll help ground our discussion or like you know ground the listener listening to us 00:12:17.220 --> 00:12:21.080 yeah especially like they they've been working on it like they said really hard for three months 00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:26.300 so like these guys are usually methodical and they don't release stuff forever so the fact that they 00:12:26.400 --> 00:12:32.480 like had an epiphany of an idea here and they they what they showed i bet you the majority of what 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:38.439 they showed stays the same that these guys unless they they really think there's a there's an even 00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:47.560 easier way. Some other things I noticed was like some of the, what was it, create, one of their 00:12:47.650 --> 00:12:53.660 create interactions. There's create an interaction, there's create something with an E, I'm not 00:12:53.840 --> 00:13:00.600 remembering, but maybe it was create an interaction. It looked a lot like React State, however, 00:13:00.670 --> 00:13:07.379 it wasn't State. I found that to be very interesting. You could pull getters and setters out of it as 00:13:07.400 --> 00:13:13.680 an array. So that pattern felt familiar. To your point about migrating, one thing is like AI is 00:13:13.710 --> 00:13:19.640 great at migrating things. So I would imagine these guys would try to feed this into AI and how to make 00:13:19.820 --> 00:13:23.580 it migrate that fast. I know, Matt, you said to hold off on that, but I had that thought. I just 00:13:23.650 --> 00:13:28.420 really wanted to point it out there. That seems to be kind of the migrating path these days. And 00:13:29.110 --> 00:13:35.619 it also has context. And the context seemed pretty easy to use. And also they were really 00:13:35.640 --> 00:13:41.560 adamant to talk about how the context doesn't force re-renders and um that this paradigm isn't 00:13:42.380 --> 00:13:48.600 a react paradigm it doesn't consistently re-render uh so it's gonna be i think the hardest thing for 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:57.400 people maybe who only know react is how this how to uh to live in this world where it's not about 00:13:57.560 --> 00:14:03.379 forcing renders and how that paradigm has changed that is a fundamentally huge shift in the way 00:14:04.160 --> 00:14:06.040 most people probably program these days. 00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:10.300 They've been really harping on having this be like sort of 00:14:11.670 --> 00:14:14.280 AI first or like model driven, which 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:18.820 my original reads of it from their blog post, from other tweets and whatnot, 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.020 it's like, I was like, all right, but what does that mean? 00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:26.380 It's hard to see what they mean exactly, but 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:31.020 in many ways, like the three months that Ryan was like sitting in a cave hacking on this stuff, 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.400 It's like, I think he was basically just working 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:35.220 with like cursor or cloud code the whole time 00:14:35.400 --> 00:14:37.600 just to try to build out the framework using AI also, 00:14:38.380 --> 00:14:38.940 which is interesting. 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:41.280 You know, how much benefit do you want to put in 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.800 or like stock of trust do you put into something 00:14:44.910 --> 00:14:47.480 that AI is generating for you for a framework 00:14:47.770 --> 00:14:49.180 versus for a feature code. 00:14:50.660 --> 00:14:51.760 But anyway, yeah, I think Dillon, 00:14:51.900 --> 00:14:54.800 you have some like thoughts that I was going to also talk 00:14:54.940 --> 00:14:56.480 about so I'll let you just share those. 00:14:57.080 --> 00:14:58.979 - Yeah, I was just, we have some show notes 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:04.740 of running and i'm throwing some some of like the main features that i remembered i mean one of you 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:10.620 just mentioned the context feature um and then another thing in the presentation that it was 00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:15.780 using this again which i feel like was kind of a shocking moment in a weird way because we've i feel 00:15:15.780 --> 00:15:21.720 like we've shied away from that in recent years with typescript and javascript um and another 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:28.339 another thing that's huge that i i liked a lot was the explicit updating i think scott sort of 00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:35.560 touch on that no no more hidden re-renders i think that's sort of going to be a hard learning curve 00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:41.380 for people that are so dependent on react in the way that it updates things but 00:15:42.860 --> 00:15:45.580 it's going to force people to to really understand what's going on 00:15:47.330 --> 00:15:52.380 and then another one in the top of mind that i was about to post was uh who knew that this was 00:15:52.410 --> 00:15:58.320 like the first argument to a function in typescript i still haven't even like fully wrap my head around 00:15:58.360 --> 00:15:59.860 that that was like a feature built in. 00:16:00.090 --> 00:16:01.060 I thought that was so interesting. 00:16:01.690 --> 00:16:02.200 I don't know why. 00:16:02.510 --> 00:16:05.600 I don't even know that like it's going to change my day to day that much, 00:16:05.680 --> 00:16:07.720 but I just was like, whoa, I didn't know that was a thing. 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:12.320 That to me also is like crazy sort of mind blowing in a sense of like, 00:16:12.640 --> 00:16:15.740 I was like, what do you mean they're passing this like into the function? 00:16:15.850 --> 00:16:19.920 And I was like, it took me quite a bit of time to realize that this is just like 00:16:20.780 --> 00:16:23.900 that that syntax is only a TypeScript feature. 00:16:24.160 --> 00:16:28.380 Like it's a way to type the value of this for that function. 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:32.280 And it's not like a, you know, when TypeScript compiles out that code, 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:35.320 it's like you don't see an argument for your function called this. 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:40.860 So it took me a while to like sort of understand what was going on 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:42.260 and like what they're doing there. 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.740 But it is a neat, maybe a slightly esoteric TypeScript feature. 00:16:45.800 --> 00:16:49.520 You know, obviously we've been, it's been so long since most 00:16:49.540 --> 00:16:54.420 web developers have had to use this, that it's like a feature that TypeScript didn't really, 00:16:55.400 --> 00:16:58.140 like most people probably didn't even know that it's a TypeScript feature potentially, 00:16:58.510 --> 00:17:02.240 or maybe I'm just like living in a cave or under a rock to know about that. 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:10.360 I do think just like thinking about how people might react to it. I think maybe like people, 00:17:11.030 --> 00:17:16.580 maybe 90% of people really love the event abstractions that it's using. And then maybe 00:17:16.600 --> 00:17:22.140 10% of people will like really love the component abstractions and in terms of like manual updates 00:17:22.620 --> 00:17:27.900 and or you know using this to update and the context features and stuff like that but I feel 00:17:27.900 --> 00:17:31.400 like the bulk of people are just going to enjoy the event part and not necessarily the component 00:17:32.010 --> 00:17:34.880 aspect part but maybe I'm biased there. 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:49.340 All right, we've hashed a little bit about the framework 00:17:49.919 --> 00:17:51.900 implementation-- or framework side of things, APIs, 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:52.660 and stuff like that. 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.240 And obviously, some of it could change before we see it. 00:17:56.860 --> 00:17:59.880 I guess maybe moving on to adoption, 00:18:00.580 --> 00:18:01.400 what this means for React. 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:05.260 I think we probably said it. 00:18:05.340 --> 00:18:07.100 But just to be clear, Remix itself 00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:09.060 is not using React under the hood 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:13.360 to handle diffing of the DOM or VDOM and things like that. 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.600 It's using its own VDOM implementation that still supports JSX. 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:22.100 So it looks a lot like React, but it doesn't have all the same features 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:22.920 that React supports. 00:18:23.100 --> 00:18:26.300 So if you adopted Vue transition from React, for example, 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:30.100 that's not an abstraction that currently exists with Remix. 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:31.920 Maybe they add something that looks like it, 00:18:33.260 --> 00:18:36.200 or suspense or suspense list, if that's even still a thing in React. 00:18:37.220 --> 00:18:42.100 So those aren't concepts within Remix, at least at the moment. 00:18:43.460 --> 00:18:45.760 One of the other cool nuggets I saw, I guess, 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.740 before we dig into migrations was basically 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.280 the replacement for suspense that they called frames. 00:18:53.159 --> 00:18:55.020 Or it's a replacement for suspense slash 00:18:55.380 --> 00:18:57.940 a replacement for server components and client component 00:18:58.260 --> 00:19:00.260 abstractions, which was really neat. 00:19:00.340 --> 00:19:02.480 But I feel like they didn't spend that much time talking 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:03.400 about how it works. 00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:05.720 Maybe that's just the part of me that just 00:19:05.860 --> 00:19:06.900 wants to dig deeper into it. 00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:11.780 I don't know if you guys remembered or saw much 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:12.940 about the frame implementation. 00:19:13.220 --> 00:19:15.580 That was sort of-- during the demo, they showed-- 00:19:15.710 --> 00:19:18.340 and this was later on in the back end part of the demo, 00:19:18.600 --> 00:19:18.880 I think. 00:19:19.420 --> 00:19:21.980 But they showed a bookstore, and they 00:19:22.120 --> 00:19:23.960 showed product cards of books. 00:19:24.820 --> 00:19:26.680 And each of those product cards was an individual-- what 00:19:26.710 --> 00:19:27.280 they called a frame. 00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:30.080 So it was a separate hydrated client component. 00:19:30.360 --> 00:19:31.720 So they'd server render the rest of the page, 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.000 except for those frames, send it down, 00:19:35.260 --> 00:19:37.780 and then those frames were then hydrate on the client. 00:19:39.860 --> 00:19:46.540 At least my assumption is how server island architecture works with other frameworks. 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:49.240 I don't know. 00:19:49.290 --> 00:19:52.680 That was pretty exciting to see that that abstraction exists. 00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:55.420 I missed that part of the demo. 00:19:55.530 --> 00:19:55.880 I'm sorry. 00:19:57.400 --> 00:19:59.080 I think it was very... 00:19:59.560 --> 00:20:02.160 Obviously, they spent a lot more time on the event stuff, I think. 00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:04.900 And then also more time on just standard... 00:20:05.340 --> 00:20:09.620 At least for the back-end part of it, more standard back-end server-y stuff. 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:11.120 than digging into the frame. 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:12.940 So it was, I think, kind of like a hidden nugget. 00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:15.140 I'm even now thinking about it, 00:20:15.140 --> 00:20:16.500 and that's like, I kind of want to go back 00:20:16.570 --> 00:20:18.300 and rewatch the demo just to understand it 00:20:18.300 --> 00:20:20.180 a little bit more and see what it looked like. 00:20:20.740 --> 00:20:22.840 I just looked for like 10 minutes 00:20:22.990 --> 00:20:24.120 to find out what I was talking about. 00:20:24.170 --> 00:20:25.620 It was create event type. 00:20:26.280 --> 00:20:28.920 Create event type was the API I was looking at. 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.100 All right, not important, but we're back at it. 00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:32.540 Sorry, Matt. 00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:36.360 Were you listening to Matt? 00:20:36.760 --> 00:20:37.120 Yeah. 00:20:38.360 --> 00:20:39.560 I was multitasking. 00:20:40.080 --> 00:20:59.180 Any other little nuggets that you guys want to talk about? Or before we dig into like, what does this mean for React or like migration? Or, you know, future or whatever? Like, if not, yeah, maybe we talk a little bit about like, okay, yeah, you know, you're working in a React code base that has thousands of components. What does it mean if you want to adopt Remix 3? 00:20:59.560 --> 00:21:01.980 I have like a couple of questions before we get to that. 00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:06.720 So some of the stuff I didn't get to was like, they were talking about async as well as 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.240 like remix component library and bubbling custom events. 00:21:11.080 --> 00:21:13.760 Does anyone have any thoughts on those topics? 00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:19.640 I thought on the component library, which is like, it's interesting to see a framework 00:21:19.860 --> 00:21:23.880 like this sort of ship its own component library, but it also makes sense in the sense that like, 00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:27.600 you know, everyone else expects there to be a component library that exists for your web 00:21:27.620 --> 00:21:30.660 framework, whether it's some third party library, like, 00:21:30.850 --> 00:21:32.060 you know, ShadCN for React. 00:21:33.060 --> 00:21:35.620 I'm sure there's something equivalent for whatever 00:21:35.770 --> 00:21:36.740 other frameworks out there. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:39.940 So it kind of makes sense in a sense of, 00:21:39.970 --> 00:21:41.960 like, they need to bootstrap that for this framework. 00:21:42.860 --> 00:21:45.640 So that, to me, like, it's like, OK, 00:21:45.770 --> 00:21:47.640 that sort of clicked in my mind of, like, of course, 00:21:47.820 --> 00:21:49.320 like, if they want to encourage people to adopt it, 00:21:49.370 --> 00:21:52.360 they need to share some abstractions for them. 00:21:53.380 --> 00:21:54.560 But otherwise, it was kind of interesting. 00:21:54.670 --> 00:21:57.580 I feel like the React team obviously 00:21:57.600 --> 00:22:02.720 wanted to shy away from shipping a lot of these baked in features when they shipped react like you know 00:22:02.900 --> 00:22:07.900 custom router or other libraries they just didn't see that as an aspect that the react team needed 00:22:07.900 --> 00:22:13.300 to manage but um you know i think that this sort of points to like the remix guys have a different 00:22:13.560 --> 00:22:19.960 perspective on on what should be baked in or what should be available out of the box provided by the 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:26.380 you know first party versus third party solutions 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:26.380 yeah i feel like they understand that moving to 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:32.840 this if you're currently in a react app with shad cn for instance it's going to be super hard 00:22:33.350 --> 00:22:38.980 so they're trying to make it easier for people via providing those those tools so that makes sense to 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:45.720 me 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:45.720 another another kind of aspect of that is like they baked in a css and js framework as part of 00:22:45.820 --> 00:22:52.860 remix 3 as well so this is um uh so they in their js they showcased a few different like custom props 00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:53.220 or whatever. 00:22:53.540 --> 00:22:55.880 It's like on was a custom prop to add multiple event 00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:56.620 listeners to an element. 00:22:57.140 --> 00:23:00.940 But they also support a CSS prop, which my understanding 00:23:01.120 --> 00:23:03.460 is that it basically works kind of like almost 00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:06.940 every other frameworks, custom JSX CSS prop. 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:14.280 So you override the JSX factory that your bundler injects 00:23:14.360 --> 00:23:16.100 and it handles the CSS prop for you. 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:22.880 So that was neat, but it's not that uncommon, I guess, 00:23:23.070 --> 00:23:23.560 in the space. 00:23:25.379 --> 00:23:27.420 Scott, you were talking a little bit about what 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:31.340 were the other ones you caught up besides the component library? 00:23:32.580 --> 00:23:37.540 Yeah, event bubbling was one and async programming. 00:23:39.379 --> 00:23:41.140 The event bubbling is like-- 00:23:42.210 --> 00:23:42.760 correct me if I'm wrong. 00:23:44.020 --> 00:23:46.540 I feel like they were selling a feature that already exists, 00:23:46.900 --> 00:23:52.580 And they were saying, like, look at this, this event, just like, like, I can move this, a listener up to, up to the form and it just works. 00:23:52.760 --> 00:23:54.260 And it's like, you can do that in React. 00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:57.400 So like, to me, that was like, like, what's different? 00:23:57.600 --> 00:23:58.540 What's unique about this? 00:23:58.700 --> 00:24:00.020 Like, I don't know. 00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:11.220 To me, it was just like, okay, and versus like, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm misunderstanding or like, maybe there was an aspect there that I missed when watching the video. 00:24:11.800 --> 00:24:16.460 I didn't get to that part, but I was just wondering if there was any excitement there. 00:24:16.600 --> 00:24:22.320 I really do think it was maybe front loaded with excitement, showing off kind of the context 00:24:22.860 --> 00:24:25.440 and like, it's clear it's not complete, right? 00:24:26.560 --> 00:24:34.180 The context might be there and like how custom events and the separation of events from the 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:35.780 layout that looks really good. 00:24:35.980 --> 00:24:43.560 And that's like really the pro so far, the rest of it, we'll see how it, how it comes. 00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:50.860 again uh these guys are methodical i don't know how long it will probably take them a while but i 00:24:50.860 --> 00:24:55.780 do think if they approach this problem as like here's a bunch of little packages and when we 00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:01.540 have enough done um we'll create a large package they might be onto something with that approach 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:10.019 basically the shadCN approach well a little different but similar 00:25:02.180 --> 00:25:10.019 another thing that sort of 00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:12.620 worries me a little bit in the back of my head is that 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.860 these guys have known to release a change 00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:20.280 that has a pretty dramatic API change 00:25:21.100 --> 00:25:25.600 and then go back on that in the next major release. 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.060 Which is not to say that you need to 00:25:30.300 --> 00:25:34.480 again, you need to FAFO a little bit to land on the right API 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:38.280 or right abstraction. I don't know the exact versions. 00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:40.060 I should have looked it up, but I think React Router, 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.260 it's like the change from V2 to V3, 00:25:42.550 --> 00:25:44.500 which is like, well, I say decades ago, 00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:45.800 but like years and years ago, 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.920 was like a pretty dramatic shift, if I remember correctly, 00:25:50.120 --> 00:25:51.680 of like how you structure your routes, 00:25:51.830 --> 00:25:53.560 how you handle loading, stuff like that. 00:25:54.180 --> 00:25:54.820 And then they basically, 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:58.400 there was maybe a decent amount of outcry in the community, 00:25:58.860 --> 00:26:00.480 and I think they sort of like flipped back 00:26:00.800 --> 00:26:03.780 from V3 to V4 of like going back to a more model 00:26:03.850 --> 00:26:05.280 that looked similar to previous APIs. 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:08.360 And so to me, this is like, 00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:10.860 and kind of not necessarily the same 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:11.960 in terms of like API change, 00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:13.480 but just in terms of like naming change 00:26:13.600 --> 00:26:15.960 of like migrating from React Router to Remix 00:26:16.020 --> 00:26:18.420 and then rebranding Remix back to React Router 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:20.060 last year or whatever it was. 00:26:22.120 --> 00:26:24.240 So like, it gives me a little bit of a pause of like, 00:26:25.180 --> 00:26:27.500 like, you know, maybe I wait for Remix V4 00:26:27.920 --> 00:26:31.760 or Remix V3.1 or something until it's like fully baked 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:34.260 and they've like figured out these abstractions. 00:26:36.080 --> 00:26:36.540 Yeah, I don't know. 00:26:38.080 --> 00:26:40.640 Again, we're talking about extremely early software here, 00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:42.620 extremely early patterns and concepts, 00:26:42.760 --> 00:26:44.820 and so some of it's likely to change. 00:26:45.100 --> 00:26:46.760 Yeah, we're all looking at this from the lens of, 00:26:46.860 --> 00:26:50.040 like, we've never really used Remix in production, 00:26:50.600 --> 00:26:52.900 and it would be cool if we did, 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:55.160 if all these things came to light. 00:26:56.120 --> 00:26:57.440 It just feels like... 00:26:58.800 --> 00:27:00.300 At this point, I feel like they just need to, like, 00:27:01.279 --> 00:27:03.720 rebrand V3 to, like, something completely different 00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:06.900 and just call it something completely different. 00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:09.200 Just remove Remix from it 00:27:09.380 --> 00:27:10.920 because I feel like Remix is maybe 00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:13.300 that branding is maybe tainted at this point. 00:27:14.020 --> 00:27:14.860 Maybe that's a hot take. 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:16.920 I feel like they landed on a great name 00:27:17.060 --> 00:27:17.780 a couple years ago 00:27:18.060 --> 00:27:19.240 and Remix is great. 00:27:20.300 --> 00:27:22.260 I feel like it's genuinely a good name 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:23.820 and so they just want to keep using it 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:25.360 but they just want to use it 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:26.720 for their current latest project 00:27:26.860 --> 00:27:29.100 not like old stuff 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:30.020 like find a new name. 00:27:30.820 --> 00:27:32.840 Maybe that's a bad take on it 00:27:32.840 --> 00:27:33.400 but yeah. 00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:34.860 you're both right. 00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:35.700 You're both right. 00:27:35.860 --> 00:27:37.480 Like it's an awesome name. 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:39.880 And they never really made it, 00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:42.640 but like it is branding. 00:27:42.810 --> 00:27:44.220 I don't want to say it's branding one-on-one, 00:27:44.380 --> 00:27:47.500 but like have either of you guys watched The Wire? 00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:50.540 One of the best TV shows ever. 00:27:50.840 --> 00:27:52.460 I'm recommending it right now. 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:54.060 Britt and I are watching it. 00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:54.540 Anyway. 00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:55.600 Did that come out in 1990? 00:27:56.900 --> 00:27:57.740 Oh my God. 00:27:57.860 --> 00:27:59.620 It came out in 2002. 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:01.620 Still one of the best shows ever. 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:02.140 All right. 00:28:02.260 --> 00:28:03.420 I don't want to derail us. 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:11.160 too far here um well it's on hbo now uh okay but point is like uh one of the guys um you know he's 00:28:11.300 --> 00:28:17.800 he's like learning about selling things and whatnot but like just rebranding something um 00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:22.640 and giving it a different name and it could be the same product even though in this case obviously 00:28:22.750 --> 00:28:28.400 it's not the exact same can have a huge impact or effect so it is a little tough from that 00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:33.400 standpoint, if people associate remix with like feeling let down from the last couple iterations, 00:28:34.120 --> 00:28:39.220 um, it's going to be a little harder and I'm not, I'm not trying to put points against it, 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:45.180 but psychologically, if you felt let down by it, it might make that harder to everyone to move to 00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:50.160 react. Like a good example is react, right? Everyone got on it and it worked well to start. 00:28:50.940 --> 00:28:55.660 And now it's kind of the standard because of it. Just, just a side thought there. 00:28:56.360 --> 00:29:03.660 I guess like zooming out a little bit, like, I think, I think the industry, well, I think the, 00:29:04.120 --> 00:29:09.440 the people that you, the React developers in the industry are starting to realize that they've been 00:29:09.620 --> 00:29:17.960 React-pilled for the past 10 years. And, uh, and, you know, I think it's really interesting also 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:22.760 to think back that like Ryan Florence was one of the demos and like speakers when they announced 00:29:22.780 --> 00:29:27.680 React Hooks. And I feel like he was on stage selling them and people got bought in. They're 00:29:27.780 --> 00:29:31.200 like, what is this? This is crazy. But then actually said, actually, this is pretty cool. 00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:37.580 And then, you know, and then so like Hooks came out and people were like, it seems a little bit 00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.640 funky, but let's adopt it. And there were some people in the industry that were saying like, 00:29:40.780 --> 00:29:47.880 that's still really weird. Like, why come up with this thing? And then, you know, a couple of years 00:29:47.900 --> 00:29:53.440 zoom forward a couple years later and it's like suspense and server components and and people are 00:29:53.540 --> 00:29:58.720 like oh okay that seems interesting and there's like maybe a larger audience of that slight you 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:03.900 know larger slice of the react ecosystem and saying like wait a minute this is weird i think that's 00:30:04.040 --> 00:30:08.280 what like that's what we're starting to see is like we're starting to see this that slice grow 00:30:08.450 --> 00:30:13.960 even larger to become a very either vocal minority or get close to a majority of the react ecosystem 00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:15.960 I'm saying like, actually some of these concepts 00:30:16.110 --> 00:30:16.820 are kind of funky. 00:30:18.500 --> 00:30:21.500 And what if we didn't do it this way? 00:30:21.660 --> 00:30:22.880 Like what if we did it a different way? 00:30:23.240 --> 00:30:25.560 So we've seen this with people moving from Next 00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:29.560 to Tanstack Start, for example, which as I understand it, 00:30:29.700 --> 00:30:33.540 exposes kind of a similar-ish API as the React Router Framework 00:30:33.660 --> 00:30:36.200 Mode or whatever it's called, Remix V2, or whatever it is. 00:30:37.900 --> 00:30:40.560 And so part of me is like, I think 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:42.560 we're sort of like maybe catching a wave of like, 00:30:43.660 --> 00:30:45.400 actually, what if we didn't do it the React way, 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:47.860 but we took the good parts of React 00:30:48.800 --> 00:30:50.880 and maybe a simpler programming model 00:30:51.100 --> 00:30:53.680 or a simpler abstraction around how you load data, 00:30:53.870 --> 00:30:55.540 how you handle events and manage state. 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.780 And I think that ultimately is my summary 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:03.140 of maybe what Remix 3 is trying to accomplish. 00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:06.540 From what I've seen so far, it looks pretty exciting, 00:31:07.270 --> 00:31:08.900 but again, yeah, some of it's going to change. 00:31:10.100 --> 00:31:12.480 Yeah, I feel like I was maybe summarizing that topic. 00:31:12.700 --> 00:31:15.340 I don't want to cut you guys off on further thoughts there. 00:31:16.620 --> 00:31:18.220 But yeah, it is interesting. 00:31:18.310 --> 00:31:19.800 I think that we've sort of... 00:31:19.800 --> 00:31:19.820 Yeah, definitely. 00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:21.740 I think we're starting to see, 00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:23.440 maybe not necessarily a downfall of React, 00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.720 but sort of, you know, we've hit the plateau of the adoption curve of React. 00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:29.160 I don't want to say it's silly not to, 00:31:29.280 --> 00:31:31.180 because there are good use cases not to, 00:31:31.530 --> 00:31:32.500 and there are good solutions. 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:35.260 You know, I haven't used Astro, 00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:38.380 but for static sites, I've heard really good things about it. 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:50.420 And I once touched Svelte, shout out Arty for a project, but they seem like good solutions. 00:31:51.360 --> 00:31:59.820 Really just more so when you have all these corporations and their giant code bases on this one platform that everyone agreed on. 00:31:59.820 --> 00:32:03.940 I feel like getting unstuck from that is going to be kind of a challenge. 00:32:04.340 --> 00:32:17.400 But if something presents itself as strong enough, and with AI being a great migration tool, we might finally see a change, which is honestly exciting in the world of JavaScript and front end. 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:20.580 Can I do one critique of the presentation? 00:32:20.930 --> 00:32:21.620 Maybe a hot take. 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:23.060 Another one. 00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:24.860 Maybe a couple at the beginning. 00:32:24.990 --> 00:32:30.480 But there was a moment where, and I want to see how everyone feels about this. 00:32:30.860 --> 00:32:36.420 Maybe it was sarcasm where he basically was like, oh, I just asked Cursor to build this part of it. 00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.420 And I put that off to the side and I don't need to know what that's doing. 00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:41.240 It just works. 00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:44.200 What were you guys feeling? 00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:51.120 Was that sarcasm or is that just like, is that the way that we're moving in development? 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.760 That was kind of like what I was trying to get to. 00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.520 Also, earlier, what I was saying, 00:32:56.920 --> 00:32:59.140 it seems a lot like he was using AI 00:32:59.340 --> 00:33:02.440 to build the abstractions in this framework so far, 00:33:03.320 --> 00:33:06.540 which is like, and maybe I'm taking this a little bit 00:33:06.700 --> 00:33:07.940 tangential over your question, Dillon, 00:33:08.050 --> 00:33:10.760 but gives me a little bit of a pause also. 00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:15.480 I don't have full confidence that AI-generated code 00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:20.360 is as good yet as human-written code. 00:33:21.980 --> 00:33:32.380 And so part of me is a little bit hesitant of like, okay, like AI generated the code that handles the core abstraction for event handling within the framework, for example. 00:33:32.420 --> 00:33:39.020 And it's like, how trustworthy are we that that's like doing the right, making the right choices or whatnot? 00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:39.340 Yeah. 00:33:39.780 --> 00:33:44.080 I meant more like it was the moment where he was like, I generated that. 00:33:44.080 --> 00:33:45.080 I'm not going to look at it. 00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:46.300 It spits out what I need. 00:33:47.860 --> 00:33:52.760 I'm okay with people using AI and closely reviewing it and iterating and iterating. 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:54.160 It was just that. 00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:56.080 Maybe I'm reading into it too much. 00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:03.860 I think it was a joke only because later in the presentation, he made a comment about... 00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:05.480 Well, first off, I hope it was a joke. 00:34:05.580 --> 00:34:19.440 But I think it might have been because later on he made a comment about how he put in the Claude.md file the exact thing he needed for a solution for a specific part of the demo. 00:34:20.040 --> 00:34:24.899 So he actually had it like generate a whole part of the drum machine, I think. 00:34:26.620 --> 00:34:32.200 I'm trying to remember what part it was, but maybe it was the whole update method he basically ended up making. 00:34:32.980 --> 00:34:35.760 But basically he was like, yeah, I put the whole thing in the Claude.md file. 00:34:35.899 --> 00:34:37.700 That's how you know it does what you want it to do. 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:39.240 He made a comment like that. 00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:42.679 So my assumption is it seemed like they prepped a lot. 00:34:42.790 --> 00:34:48.860 So maybe he just said that, I don't know, to kind of like keep the thing exciting, make 00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:51.500 it seem, make you think a little bit. 00:34:51.700 --> 00:34:58.620 But it's hard for me to believe that he wouldn't know what it's doing because like they broke 00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:01.080 down a lot of code and exactly what it did. 00:35:01.540 --> 00:35:07.460 And he kept talking about some really interesting things that what JavaScript does by default nature. 00:35:07.680 --> 00:35:12.360 I mean, with all his years in working on JavaScript, he knows a lot about some of these things. 00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:15.060 So my assumption is like he has to at some level know. 00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:25.040 But if they're just yeeting out solutions and not looking at it, I'd be really concerned because I'm 100% in agreement with what Matt said. 00:35:25.120 --> 00:35:27.460 Like, AI can write really good code. 00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:29.940 But, you know, I may probably have said this here. 00:35:30.220 --> 00:35:35.120 But it's better at things that are more common when you're building something that's more abstract. 00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:35.860 That's harder. 00:35:36.950 --> 00:35:40.900 Even though there's context bloat, if you give, we use Claude. 00:35:42.020 --> 00:35:43.540 There are Claude MD files everywhere. 00:35:44.780 --> 00:35:50.020 Like, a great example is you tell it not to use any type and it uses any type everywhere. 00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:54.240 So, like, there's things that it just, like, fails to do sometimes. 00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:07.280 You know, often I see it creating flags that can be used for multiple things or they just add a lot of extra bloat that just doesn't need to be there. 00:36:07.460 --> 00:36:13.400 So I would imagine he if he's serious about this, unless he was rushing just for demo, he knows what it's doing. 00:36:13.780 --> 00:36:16.760 Sorry, I'm being long winded about this, but I'm very hopeful. 00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:27.220 yeah i i was less like call him out and just make sure that hopefully the the way that this industry 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:34.200 moves is we don't normalize like 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:34.200 100 percent 00:36:27.420 --> 00:36:34.200 like creating ai slop don't review it just like stick it in a 00:36:34.340 --> 00:36:40.860 file and then reference some function and and it's sort of like encapsulated the ai slop i just don't 00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:46.520 want that to be a thing that this industry becomes and i'm afraid it kind of maybe is already on that 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:53.360 path but yeah maybe that's another episode 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:53.360 i agree with you on that 00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:53.360 stop the slop 00:36:56.000 --> 00:37:00.940 oh man we got a campaign we got to start doing that with our tech signs we gotta stop the slop 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:09.720 stop the slop 00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:09.720 i have one co-worker as maybe one of one at the company who doesn't use ai at all 00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.039 maybe we should like bring him on the podcast that'd be crazy 00:37:14.980 --> 00:37:18.980 we should we're still waiting on Rogin shout out Rogin 00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:24.400 well to be fair we're not waiting on him what he's waiting on us 00:37:27.080 --> 00:37:33.060 but yeah it's because we record the podcast at like eight to nine a.m eastern so we'd have to 00:37:33.220 --> 00:37:38.919 wake up at five don't give away all our secrets yeah we'll have to take off a friday from work 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:39.100 altogether. 00:37:41.480 --> 00:37:42.520 I'm cutting this segment out. 00:37:42.790 --> 00:37:42.880 Sorry. 00:37:47.739 --> 00:37:49.440 We record at 6 a.m. 00:37:49.710 --> 00:37:49.800 Eastern. 00:37:49.970 --> 00:37:52.080 We don't want him to be up till 3 p.m. 00:37:53.060 --> 00:37:53.600 3 a.m. 00:37:53.650 --> 00:37:54.100 3 a.m. 00:37:54.240 --> 00:37:54.400 Jesus. 00:37:56.980 --> 00:37:57.160 All right. 00:37:57.220 --> 00:37:59.260 Yeah, I think we've talked a decent amount about Remix 3. 00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:00.860 I mean, again, it's still very early. 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:03.680 Curious to hear everyone else's thoughts when you listen to the podcast. 00:38:04.720 --> 00:38:05.860 Let us know what we got wrong. 00:38:05.900 --> 00:38:10.260 how we, you know, there was some kerfuffle on Twitter about another podcast that covered it 00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:16.860 that got a lot of things wrong. So hopefully we're not as bad as that. Um, uh, yeah, I guess like 00:38:17.160 --> 00:38:23.420 let's transition to, we had a few side segments. Uh, first, first up, uh, we want to cover a new 00:38:23.600 --> 00:38:27.060 segment that we're maybe tentatively calling, maybe when you come up with a better name is 00:38:27.220 --> 00:38:32.780 Scott's style corner. Um, I just imagine like a little, like sort of a pre-kindergarten or 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:36.860 kindergarten sort of room and there's a tiny little like corner in which there's a little desk and a 00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:40.300 little chair and Scott's sitting there and it's like he's painting or something but 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:48.500 in today's session of Scott's style corner we're going to talk about handling null and undefined 00:38:48.600 --> 00:38:54.500 values within UIs and you know I'm like sort of paraphrasing Scott who shared the original 00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:59.120 concept or like shared some of his maybe pain points of the original concept so maybe we'd 00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:00.960 start there and talk about it. 00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:17.700 um often times what i've seen is when you have a null or undefined field we treat it as such we 00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:25.340 just say in the ui like this is null this is undefined this is not something and just as a like 00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:36.020 a ux suggestion uh if you have a let's say um list of uh filters or something that you can filter by 00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:46.000 and you want to have an undefined or null filter be um all filters or no filters or something 00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:53.020 um so you can see all the items in the list we want to represent that with it with an actual name 00:39:53.080 --> 00:39:57.600 So if this is like statuses, something could be in review, it could be reviewed. 00:39:58.740 --> 00:40:03.480 And then if it's null or undefined, we were just putting like empty on the page. 00:40:03.600 --> 00:40:05.940 And a better example would be to say not reviewed. 00:40:06.080 --> 00:40:11.860 We don't need to save that maybe everywhere as itself as an item. 00:40:12.240 --> 00:40:14.420 But we want to kind of look at these null or undefined fields. 00:40:15.220 --> 00:40:18.600 It doesn't always have to be a name that's in an enum and then we assign something to it. 00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:22.340 But look at null and undefined for the user and how the user might see that. 00:40:22.380 --> 00:40:25.820 So like when I saw this as an example, I was like empty. 00:40:26.420 --> 00:40:27.260 I was like, what does that mean? 00:40:27.340 --> 00:40:28.160 This looks like a bug. 00:40:29.240 --> 00:40:30.400 I was very confused. 00:40:30.580 --> 00:40:35.160 I'm not really the user base, but I was like, oh, okay, well, we just want to say like not 00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:35.660 reviewed yet. 00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:37.520 Like we're not in one of these things. 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:42.760 Maybe that's not the perfect example solution of naming, but let's just always try to present 00:40:43.520 --> 00:40:46.680 in the UI how the user might need to read that. 00:40:46.930 --> 00:40:52.340 So to make sure we're not just saying spitting, I guess what I would call it leaking implementation 00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:58.700 implementation details onto the UX. We want to avoid that or the UI rather, uh, so that there 00:40:58.820 --> 00:41:03.460 is a better UX. So we want to make sure that we're naming things appropriately for how the user might 00:41:03.600 --> 00:41:08.320 interact with that. And I guess that more so comes with a team that doesn't have a designer. Um, 00:41:09.140 --> 00:41:13.620 but it's, it's a way of an engineer to think about what they're building. You know, sometimes we say 00:41:13.720 --> 00:41:17.940 like, there's a little bit of a rant, but sometimes we say like all this stuff on the front end is easy, 00:41:18.080 --> 00:41:23.500 but there are so many edge cases and they come up so often. And even if you use somebody's 00:41:24.740 --> 00:41:28.440 component library, you're not building the component yourself. A lot of these kinds of 00:41:28.600 --> 00:41:34.900 things pop up and, and this is what is the difference. Well, in my example, I'm talking 00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:39.960 about an internal tool, but this can be the, the difference in a user understanding what to do and 00:41:40.200 --> 00:41:44.320 converting for what they're trying to do here. So we just want to make sure that it's clear 00:41:44.680 --> 00:41:46.860 and concise what you do in all the scenarios. 00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:49.500 And working at startups with Matt, 00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:52.740 sometimes you're working on stuff that's really complex 00:41:53.640 --> 00:41:57.100 and it's hard to make clear what the choice should be 00:41:57.260 --> 00:41:58.580 or how to push somebody through a flow. 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.160 So a lot of stuff that we've picked up 00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:03.720 from working on some difficult experience building. 00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:07.120 Yeah, I think to like summarize that point 00:42:07.130 --> 00:42:09.080 is like it's a little bit contextual, right? 00:42:09.240 --> 00:42:13.460 It's like where you're showing that in the UI 00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:15.800 as part of the experience, like you should, yeah. 00:42:16.100 --> 00:42:18.260 And again, to reiterate what Scott was saying is like, 00:42:18.500 --> 00:42:20.400 you should clearly communicate to the user 00:42:20.600 --> 00:42:23.200 like what this means and not try to leave it ambiguous 00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:27.860 or undefined without, you know, not trying to be, 00:42:30.340 --> 00:42:31.040 yeah, yeah. 00:42:31.680 --> 00:42:33.980 I think one thought that came to mind also is like, 00:42:34.660 --> 00:42:36.580 in your example of like status, it's like, 00:42:37.000 --> 00:42:40.380 I would argue maybe it's also a bug to consider status 00:42:40.600 --> 00:42:42.260 to not have a clearly defined value. 00:42:42.740 --> 00:42:44.480 of like, you know, at least based on the name, 00:42:44.530 --> 00:42:46.360 it seems like it should be an enum 00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:48.200 of a number of different things, right? 00:42:48.270 --> 00:42:49.940 Like reviewed and review, stuff like that. 00:42:49.940 --> 00:42:52.220 And it's like, maybe you have like a, you know, 00:42:53.220 --> 00:42:54.800 initializing status or something like that. 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:59.120 And instead of a null or on the status, but again, yeah, 00:42:59.580 --> 00:43:01.200 I think that's, we're starting to dig into some ethics, 00:43:01.520 --> 00:43:02.000 but yeah. 00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:04.920 - I actually 100% agree with that. 00:43:04.970 --> 00:43:07.720 I think this, I should probably preference that this example, 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:12.700 you know, is based on a code base that is really large 00:43:12.720 --> 00:43:18.660 was like the paradigm that had been created before 00:43:12.720 --> 00:43:18.660 all right stand-up update it's been a while since 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:23.280 we've done stand-up based i feel like but uh Dillon what's what's up with you 00:43:27.720 --> 00:43:30.420 i don't know matt i didn't think about this 00:43:32.420 --> 00:43:35.380 all right popcorn to the next one scott what's up with you 00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:42.680 i didn't really think about it either but i i got this i got this 00:43:43.540 --> 00:43:49.100 we haven't actually recorded for like a couple of months now right guys is that accurate 00:43:49.470 --> 00:43:57.360 uh it's i need to go back through my notes yeah maybe august august yeah we recorded like 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:04.200 may or june and then once in july and once in august and now we're back to our regular cadence 00:44:05.260 --> 00:44:12.660 and it is september it is not september it's october it's the end of it it's almost november 00:44:13.220 --> 00:44:20.720 like next week we'll be able to eat out next next friday so we'll be able to do two episodes this 00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:28.540 month that's that's amazing i love it so all right so a lot has happened since then i got married in 00:44:28.660 --> 00:44:39.359 september i went on my honeymoon to iceland in september um nice that's awesome i've almost 00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:44.860 finished the feature I've been talking about since June. I've like, I've, I've finished it. 00:44:45.240 --> 00:44:50.000 I was doing show notes for, I think an episode that's coming out next week or maybe this week. 00:44:50.240 --> 00:44:54.980 Um, and in it, you're like, Oh yeah, I want to wrap up this feature in September or like early 00:44:55.140 --> 00:45:01.860 September. And you've still been working on the feature, but yeah. 00:44:55.140 --> 00:45:01.860 Oh, continue. Did you have more 00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:06.780 to say? 00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:06.780 No, I was just to say, it's like, you know, again, maybe most engineers are, you know, 00:45:06.860 --> 00:45:09.420 like overly optimistic in how fast we can deliver stuff. 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:16.260 So I don't know if I, we said this in an episode, but like, um, we found out in the middle of me 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.720 working on this, like all of August and maybe I had spent some time in July and whatnot. I had to 00:45:21.720 --> 00:45:26.540 do a migration of, I talked about it on some podcasts, a migration of, uh, Datadog to Grafana 00:45:27.180 --> 00:45:34.620 and, um, it became real pressing. So I basically switched gears all of August. Um, I, I completed 00:45:34.640 --> 00:45:41.740 what I thought would be enough in September before I went away for my honeymoon. And we ended up 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:47.960 doing a dogfooding session with the team and found a whole series of bugs. And I fixed all those bugs. 00:45:48.980 --> 00:45:56.580 But this feature is so big and it can do so much. Admittedly, a few things I could have done better 00:45:58.390 --> 00:46:03.119 was add a whole month. This feature is so big, add a whole month for features that just might not be 00:46:03.120 --> 00:46:07.260 compatible with this feature. We have an auto save feature that like doesn't work with it. I had to, 00:46:07.660 --> 00:46:11.140 I'm like refactoring that whole thing. So there's all these things that you just 00:46:11.680 --> 00:46:17.280 didn't anticipate happening. I should have buffered time for that. Um, but I've also like added some UI 00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:22.340 enhancements to make it look nicer. Uh, I made it, put it under a query param. None of this stuff was 00:46:22.540 --> 00:46:26.700 asked for. I'm like, there's just so many more features I can build within this one feature 00:46:27.140 --> 00:46:31.880 that I was having a hard time finding an endpoint at this point. 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.840 So today, actually, I'm going to blast out a message 00:46:34.900 --> 00:46:37.260 to get our pilot users to get people using it. 00:46:37.260 --> 00:46:38.780 But I'm still actively developing it. 00:46:39.540 --> 00:46:41.780 There's so many cool features to build on top of it. 00:46:42.660 --> 00:46:46.240 It's been an amazing experience, and I'm really excited about it. 00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:50.520 So it's technically like a month late, but I guess for good reason. 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.440 And I did find out they didn't expect that it could be finished 00:46:54.640 --> 00:46:55.380 before the end of the year. 00:46:55.540 --> 00:46:59.360 So it's still done, I guess, two months faster than they anticipated. 00:46:59.600 --> 00:47:01.180 So we're in a good spot. 00:47:02.700 --> 00:47:03.600 All right, that's enough about me. 00:47:03.720 --> 00:47:04.220 Popcorn, Matt. 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:06.660 Let's see. 00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:09.320 Yeah, at work. 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:10.000 Are we doing popcorn? 00:47:10.660 --> 00:47:11.080 Yeah, yeah. 00:47:11.340 --> 00:47:12.020 We're saying popcorn. 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:13.380 Okay, yeah, popcorn. 00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:14.400 We're starting this episode. 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:19.360 At work, I've been doing a number of different things. 00:47:19.620 --> 00:47:24.540 But most recently, I've been trying to dig into a memory leak that we have within RSPack, 00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:26.000 which was a lot of fun. 00:47:27.340 --> 00:47:28.800 I'm digging through a lot of it, 00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:31.360 and I'm realizing that actually Joe, friend of the pod, 00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:34.540 did a very similar investigation into a memory leak 00:47:35.540 --> 00:47:39.400 with our webpack setup, maybe almost a year ago, exactly. 00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:40.820 So that's fun. 00:47:42.260 --> 00:47:45.360 Unfortunately, we're using his patch version of the library, 00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:46.940 or his fixed version of the library, 00:47:47.140 --> 00:47:48.460 so it's not the same leak. 00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:52.480 Outside of work, I don't know, 00:47:52.540 --> 00:47:53.280 a number of different things. 00:47:55.420 --> 00:48:00.260 let's see most recently i've been listening to this album from cameron winter cameron winters 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:07.760 uh let me dig up the album name highly recommend it uh the album is called heavy metal uh he's like 00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:13.040 the lead singer i think of geese which also has a pretty good album out like i'm kind of late to the 00:48:13.820 --> 00:48:18.200 late to the news on this stuff this came out like a year ago but anyway highly recommend it um 00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:23.980 yeah i've just been jamming to that as of late i think that's about it Dillon have you uh 00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:23.980 i've had 00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:30.780 time while you guys are doing your updates uh another one big thing for me recently is i've 00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:36.800 been trying to find consistency in my just like fitness and workouts and stuff so i've been doing 00:48:37.020 --> 00:48:44.020 i've been two weeks into this like six days a week plan so that's like mondays is weights 00:48:45.340 --> 00:48:50.320 and then the next day is cardio so i've been doing that for two weeks straight it's like 00:48:50.300 --> 00:48:57.200 kind of the best i felt i don't know physically which is pretty cool 00:48:50.300 --> 00:48:57.200 you've been crushing it too 00:48:57.520 --> 00:49:02.540 like we're connected on uh like apple watch like fitness stuff and it's like maybe three times a 00:49:02.540 --> 00:49:05.540 day i get a notification saying that Dillon finished a workout and it's like god damn 00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:10.060 it's putting me to shame i'm like i only go for like a four mile walk in the morning and that's it 00:49:10.240 --> 00:49:15.760 i need to be i need to be doing some more 00:49:10.240 --> 00:49:15.760 yeah 00:49:10.240 --> 00:49:15.760 i gotta get me a new apple watch join you guys yeah 00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:22.340 It's just nice to be able to be like, I'm 36, I'm old, but I feel like better shaped than when I was 16 or something. 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.620 I don't know, maybe not, but close. 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:27.140 So humble brag. 00:49:29.180 --> 00:49:41.060 And then at work, I worked on this pretty big feature where I built a reverse proxy to split traffic between an old site and a completely new Next.js re-platform site. 00:49:42.300 --> 00:49:44.620 It's kind of a solo effort, so it's kind of daunting. 00:49:45.640 --> 00:49:49.380 We ran into some issues with like the way our experiments were bucketing. 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:51.740 It wasn't like a perfect 50-50 split. 00:49:53.140 --> 00:49:57.300 And we were able to like find a way beyond that. 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.860 I think some of it was like potentially bounce rate was higher on one. 00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:02.280 So we weren't hitting like page view events. 00:50:03.140 --> 00:50:04.320 So we're getting like mixed signals. 00:50:06.080 --> 00:50:09.480 But one of the greatest parts of this project is when we were like, 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:12.980 okay, experiment successful, replatform app is good to go. 00:50:13.080 --> 00:50:14.100 We can go 100%. 00:50:14.680 --> 00:50:21.360 all we had to do was flip the DNS to no longer point at the proxy and point directly to the 00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:29.100 the actual like hosted next app and like I was done like all that code doesn't matter anymore 00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:34.620 it doesn't get hit anymore it also like saved 500 milliseconds because I no longer have to like hit 00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:41.760 that and run experiment checks and feature flag checks so it was like kind of a sweet feeling at 00:50:41.780 --> 00:50:48.380 the end of that project to just be like I'd get to delete all my code that I spent two months on 00:50:49.040 --> 00:50:56.140 but now the site's way faster and we and we were able to like safely test things you know so like 00:50:56.340 --> 00:51:01.860 along the the way like we had issues on both sides and we were able to like flip all all to one and 00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:09.060 or flip all back to the other which was like a really nice experience so learned a ton on that 00:51:09.080 --> 00:51:15.560 project i feel like i could write a little mini book on like how not to how not to create a 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:19.860 proxy for next js because there's a lot of like 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:19.860 you should write a blog post at least 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:19.860 there's a 00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:28.500 lot of like special details you need to to like fill in to make sure that request works correctly 00:51:29.100 --> 00:51:35.760 because next does some things and passes specific headers and if you like don't properly forward 00:51:35.780 --> 00:51:39.480 those along, like things can go crazy and blow up. 00:51:41.040 --> 00:51:45.220 I feel like that's always satisfying to like reach the culmination of a project. 00:51:47.359 --> 00:51:51.820 And where like, yeah, I feel like we were like a bleep fair, way fair. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:53.960 We, we like worked on a number of different things where it's like, 00:51:54.620 --> 00:51:57.160 you kind of get to an end of thing, but then it's like, oh, 00:51:57.180 --> 00:51:58.940 we got to keep that code around just in case, 00:51:59.200 --> 00:52:02.020 or like just in case we have to flip back. And I don't know. 00:52:02.120 --> 00:52:06.800 It just was never really, never really had that many satisfying sort of end of project 00:52:07.140 --> 00:52:07.240 moments. 00:52:08.520 --> 00:52:10.420 Yeah, that was like the best feelings. 00:52:11.960 --> 00:52:16.960 I was basically like, hey guys, once I do this change, it's sort of a no return moment. 00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:22.660 Like I can still undo it, but it's like a multi-step process. 00:52:24.020 --> 00:52:26.040 And thankfully we even haven't had to do that. 00:52:26.080 --> 00:52:26.700 So it's been good. 00:52:28.040 --> 00:52:28.300 Nice. 00:52:29.680 --> 00:52:29.740 Cool. 00:52:30.100 --> 00:52:30.300 All right. 00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:31.640 I think we should wrap it up there. 00:52:33.600 --> 00:52:36.440 as always if you enjoyed listening to this podcast 00:52:36.740 --> 00:52:39.460 share it with someone that doesn't currently listen to it 00:52:40.090 --> 00:52:42.620 or even share it with them and remind them to listen to it again 00:52:42.790 --> 00:52:44.780 just so we boost those stats up 00:52:45.820 --> 00:52:47.740 leave us a review wherever you're listening to this 00:52:48.410 --> 00:52:51.340 we appreciate 6 out of 5 star ratings would be great 00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:53.640 you can send us tips 00:52:53.790 --> 00:52:55.660 just send them to Scott 00:52:56.180 --> 00:52:58.640 and he'll worry about distribution 00:53:00.240 --> 00:53:00.340 yeah 00:53:01.180 --> 00:53:02.680 otherwise yeah appreciate everyone for listening 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.740 and tuning in hopefully we get back into the 00:53:04.880 --> 00:53:06.640 groove of releasing an episode weekly 00:53:07.680 --> 00:53:08.160 optimistically 00:53:08.600 --> 00:53:10.400 I think we should carry forward some momentum 00:53:11.060 --> 00:53:12.600 and keep releasing these 00:53:12.800 --> 00:53:14.360 at least once per quarter Matt 00:53:17.080 --> 00:53:18.860 I think we should continue the weekly 00:53:19.160 --> 00:53:20.740 set the goal low and then when we 00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:22.720 exceed it then we put on a performance review 00:53:24.180 --> 00:53:24.920 I think 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:26.920 what we're going to do is try to do weekly but try 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:34.160 to shorten um the 30 minute max yeah i think that works really well for us yeah 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:34.160 we are coming up on 00:53:34.620 --> 00:53:39.860 well we're still a couple months out but we're fast approaching when we had first originally 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:43.380 started to record these but then we shelved the episodes because they were pretty bad 00:53:44.040 --> 00:53:49.960 um so we might have to do a year like a year-end performance review episode or something when we 00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:54.920 get to that point and see how we've you guys want to do a um i know that we're supposed to be done 00:53:54.940 --> 00:54:01.380 here but do you guys want to do a year-end review where uh we talk about uh tech related things the 00:54:01.420 --> 00:54:06.360 best things that happen this year but also like revisit episodes of the podcast and things we said 00:54:07.340 --> 00:54:14.400 we should do a yeah yearly recap or something all right yeah all right all right catch you guys uh 00:54:14.640 --> 00:54:21.340 next week next quarter next decade to be defined next week on halloween 00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:24.700 later 00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:24.700 peace out 00:54:23.120 --> 00:54:24.700 later